Online assistance for electrical trade people Login  |  Register  |   Forgot Password
Assistance for electrical trade people
 

 

 

 


Click here to send Ron a pdf document for publication on this Topic

Documents must be less than 200k in pdf format

Posted By Topic: Plumbers

Sparky59
Sep 28 2017 18:15

Hi All

I am aware plumbers change elements and reconnect them, for some reason and provide no esc etc but what happens when cylinder is removed and replaced

How can plumbers reconnect this under whatever certification they have, I’m sure they don’t take any notice of circuit loading etc if larger element installed

Can someone please advise me of their limitation if they have no EST

Thanks
   

Sarmajor
Sep 28 2017 18:41

Unless they have a suitable Electrical Practicing License (EST, EAS (endorsed to disconnect and connect) or Associated Tradesperson) they are NOT allowed to change HWC elements at all.

If they change an element or thermostat or the wiring from the wall to the cylinder then they must supply an ESC as a minimum.

If you catch them report them to the EWRB and Worksafe.

I was once sent out to a HWC replacement job by the property manager. I called the plumbing company before going out to check that the cylinder replacement would be at a suitable stage for me when I got there. The plumbing company informed me that I would not be required as they had it all under control.
When I repeated this to the property manga her she told me to go out there because she did not want a plumber doing electrical work.
When I got there and introduced myself to the plumber as an Electrical Inspector he asked me if I wanted him to connect up the wiring to the cylinder.

That did not go very well for him, and his boss was next in line for a bollocking. Not sure they stopped doing it though.
   

ryanm10
Sep 28 2017 20:27

I was under the impression a HWC is an appliance, therefore no ESC required.
   

ryanm10
Sep 28 2017 20:29

Im not suggesting plumbers should be doing the electrical work, just that no ESC is required for appliance repairs.
   

Sarmajor
Sep 28 2017 21:05

ESR 74A requires an ESC for PEW performed on an installation or part installation.
A hot water cylinder is a fitting or collection of fittings in an installation.
Disconnecting and reconnecting any of the electrical parts of it is PEW.

Therefore an ESC is required.

The fact that a hot water cylinder is also an appliance is irrelevant to the requirement for an ESC.

The limits of work for Associatted Trades Plumber and EST (endorsed to disconnect and connect) include Certification of their work. Can't think why they bothered to write that in unless it was to require an ESC for PEW on Hot Water Cylinders. After all there aren't that many things a plumber is going to disconnect and reconnect.
   

AlecK
Sep 28 2017 21:47

I disagree.
The definition of "installation" excludes any appliance.
So connecting a HWC (or range, or luminaire) to the installation requires an ESC. But connections within the equipment do not.
   

evanh
Sep 28 2017 23:15

Thank you Alec,
The ESC detail has helped me some more.

And the HWC is such a simple item on which to discuss the partitioning of Installation activities vs Appliance activities.


PS: I only hold an EAS licence myself. Which is why I've been paying attention to such discussions.

   

AlecK
Sep 29 2017 09:02

Interpretation is required in htis area, because ESRs and Wiring Rules use slightly different definitions for some terms.
ESR 4(2)& (3)tell us which definition applies, so ESRs / Act definitions over-ride any others.

So the "electrical installation" can't include the appliances that are connected to it. The exact demarcation I take from "3000" using the demarcation between "installation wiring" and "equipment wiring".

For lighting, replacing an entire fluo is PEW on an installation, requiring ESC. Replacing a ballast inside the fluo is PEW on an appliance, no ESC.

But regardless of certification requirements, the work is definitely PEW so needs an appropriate PL. Which most plumbers don't have.

Back to HWCs, be aware that in next edition of "3000", they will need an adjacent isolating switch; so the sorts of switch commonly used will no longer be good enough. For HWCs with "boost" elements it will need to be a multi-pole isolator to isolate all the subcircuits that supply the HWC.


   

Sparky59
Sep 29 2017 11:36

I checked on EWRB site as to the Associated Tradesperson
This is the blurb:

The maintenance and replacement of fittings that have an electrical rating of not more than 250 volts and 16 amperes which are one of the following:

Storage water heater elements
Storage water heater thermostats
The disconnection and connection of fittings from or to a power supply, other than by means of a plug or pin inserted into a socket, or an appliance coupler inserted into an appliance inlet; where those fittings have an electrical rating of not more than 250 volts and 16 amperes and are one of the following;
Waste disposal units
Electronic water control units
Water pressure devices
Storage water heaters
The testing of work described in items (a) and (b) above
The certification of work described in items (a) and (b) above
The supervision of any work described in items (a) to (d) above

Can one be correct in think the maintenance and replacement of fittings they talk about is within the water cylinder or device as opposed to a replacement cylinder

Thanks
   

gregwires
Sep 29 2017 13:43

I read that as you can replace the thermostat or element in a HWC but don't go beyond that. All other items on the list you are permitted to connect / disconnect i.e replace in entirety but not service parts of.
   

AlecK
Sep 29 2017 20:00

No, that LoW includes complete replacement of HWC as well as replacing parts
   

evanh
Sep 29 2017 21:51

Greg,
That's one of those details I've been getting my head around. The electrical safety rules don't attempt to cover the internals of appliances.

If a waste disposal unit is removed from operation for repair then subsequent reinstalled again after having parts replaced, or just parts replaced with the supply isolated, then the electrical rules only cover the connection to supply (and related testing/certification).

An EAS licence only allows work on 230 Volt parts of a plugged appliance. An AT licence allows specific fixed wired 230 Volt appliance work (Sparky59 listed an example). An EST licence allows LV appliance work generally. Full Electrician licence additionally allows LV "installation" and "works" work.

What is done internally to repair an appliance is not covered by the electrical rules. It's all about the safety around the supply of LV.

   

evanh
Sep 30 2017 00:02

I'll try to word that more explicitly than I have:

Electrical Application Serviceperson licence covers the electrical safety aspect of working on the 230 Volt parts of plugged 230 Volt appliances. Be that repair or replacement.

Associated Tradesperson licence covers the the electrical safety aspect of working on the 230 Volt parts of a specific group of 230 Volt fixed wired appliances. Be that repair or replacement.

Repair can be substitution and/or modification/reengineering within the appliance. The electrical rules don't dictate. As long as the appliance is deemed fit for purpose (by the licence holder) and passes the reconnection tests then it's good by the rules.


That's my current understanding.

   

evanh
Sep 30 2017 00:12

Doh! correction - Electrical APPLIANCE Serviceperson

:)

   

AlecK
Sep 30 2017 10:08

The electrical safety rules (yo use your term) do cover the internals of appliances.

Firstly there are some basic safety rules in the front end of ESRs, and further on by some specific rules such as ESR 90 requiring testing after work done (including non-electrical work if that affects electrical safety.

ESRs also declare, in Schedule 1, various types of work to be either PEW or not PEW.

The Act says no-one is allowed to do PEW without being authorised (with some exceptions); and the authorisation comes in the form of a PL issued by EWRB which comes in a variety of forms each with slightly different limits of work.

So regardless of whether it plugs in or is otherwise connected, most work on appliances is PEW and ALL work on appliances that could affect electrical safety must be followed by testing.

The question of whether or not any certification is required - and if so, what sort of certificate - is a separate issue. Broadly speaking, work on installations must be certified in some way; work on appliances doesn't (though there's a voluntary system that can be used); and work on works is covered by the network operator's safety management system.
   

evanh
Sep 30 2017 12:39

Okay, yep, a PL is needed of course, I did a better job of that in my follow up post. The 230 Volt parts of the appliance are covered.

I guess what I was really trying to address was that the limits of PEW within a covered appliance do not change between different PLs. An EAS licence holder can do all the same work to a plug-in 230 Volt appliance as can an Electrician. There isn't extra restrictions.