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Posted By Topic: updated 3000 regs?

shane1983
Jan 31 2018 20:09

when are they releasing the updated regs?
   

AlecK
Jan 31 2018 20:32

Not yet signed off for publication, so it'll be a few months yet.

And as for being cited by ESRs, who knows.
   

Sarmajor
Jan 31 2018 21:48

Yes remember that all updated standards only become effective / mandated when they are cited in the ESR's.
   

pluto
Jan 31 2018 22:49

Read the lead article in Electrolink which was published late last week for the most up to date statement on what is happening in the next 18 months or so.


   

texynz
Feb 05 2018 20:51

They running the roadshows between March and April.

The thing that pisses me off a bit, is that they are charging for the roadshows....

Just read the "scare tactics" in the media recently.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/02/new-electrical-standards-to-impact-sparkies-and-property-owners.html


   

DougP
Feb 06 2018 08:34

So the update is supposed to come out in March, and the Master Electrician's events start from March 5th which is the 3rd working day in March. Obviously they know that the new version will be published by then, but that doesn't give everyone much time to read through the changes and come up with questions for the event.

It seems like we'll have a reasonable amount of time before the new version will be cited by regulation, so I don't see the need to rush off for a few hours of "roadshow", before I've even had time to read through the changes myself.
   

SteveH
Feb 06 2018 09:35

"A member of the public is going to die through non-compliant work, and that's what really scares me," CEO Bernie McLaughlin told Newshub."

Crikey, and everyone accuses the poor old TnT man in a van of inventing hysteria.
   

AlecK
Feb 06 2018 09:37

It won't be published by then.
But the effects of the changes is already known, including the final wording of most if not all.

The significant changes were in the Public Comment Draft (published 2 years ago); though wording may have changed since then, and some have been wound back as a result of Comment received.
   

DougP
Feb 06 2018 10:07

"But the effects of the changes is already known, including the final wording of most if not all."
It might be know by you, but not by the regular people. As you go on to say, "wording may have changed since then", so what we saw in the draft could be different - as we all know, the details matter when it comes to the standards.

I'm not trying to run down your effort and involvement Alec, but this roadshow certainly seems premature, along with the misleading hype of the dangers sponsored by Master Electricians on the Newshub page, it's certainly not enticing me to attend.

Do you know if there will be an initial release as a markup version where the changes are obvious?
   

pluto
Feb 06 2018 11:15

Read the latest Electrolink on the application of the revised AS/NZS 3000:2018 for the current cititation proposals by ESR 2010.

Read the quotes and comments by the Worksafe NZ representative who control ESR 2010 application. It is the NZ Government who actually control the use and amendment of ESR 2010 to allow AS/NZS 3000:2018 to be citited for use in NZ.

In the revised AS/NZS 3000:2018 when approved for publication, any clause that has a substantial change will be marked by a * as aid to show what has changed.
   

AlecK
Feb 06 2018 13:04

You have two choices: either attend, or don't attend. I'm not advising one way or the other - entirely up to you.

But unless you're a member of MasterElectricians, you don't get the right to complain about the timing - or cost. And if you are a member, this forum isn't the appropriate channel for complaint.

Feel free to wait and see whether any other organisation offers any sort of training. The last 2 times, ES & SNZ did - but not much, and not until well after the new rules were already in force.
   

1A2B3C
Feb 06 2018 20:10

It is excellent that there is an industry organisation making this happen. Even if it costs (Would be nice to see this sponsored by the EWRB) Anyway Thanks to everyone who is making this happen. I myself will be attending and hopefully gain some good knowledge and I'm sure there will be plenty of people with a positive mindset and a desire to see our industry thrive.
Thanks

   

gregmcc
Feb 06 2018 21:03

It would be good if the EWRB published some kind of a newsletter or similar which details the important changes rather than relying on another industry organisation of which many electrical workers are not a member.
   

andyb
Feb 06 2018 22:05

While I appreciate Master Electricians (ECANZ) want to promote the use of their membership by the public and to promote the upcoming roadshows, I’m rather concerned by the blatant misinformation this article purports that aims to scare both the public and electrical tradespeople into applying a standard that has yet to be released, let alone cited into regulations and mandated.

Mr McLaughlin making statements like “If something happens like damage to property or injury to a person, you could find yourself in court explaining why you didn't use an industry best practice guideline,” on the back of saying the new standard is “industry best practice guideline” until cited is straight out false. Until the new standard is cited it isn’t law and isn’t prosecutable against.

Other similarly ill informed quotes include "Also, the latest solar panels have micro-inverters in them, and there are currently no guidelines for installing them. The new panels output is AC, the old panels were DC,” show the man hasn’t read AS/NZS5033 or AS4777, which though outdated with rapid technology change, do clearly provide direction on installation.

Ultimately the roadshow is a good initiative and I will attend a local one off my own bat as i’m employed by a large corporate who isn’t a ECANZ member - but it will be on the knowledge that Alec will be co hosting and his contributions to this forum (and SNZ) show he is worthy of listening too. I just hope Mr McLaughlin’s contributions on the day will be accurate and scare monger free.
   

AlecK
Feb 07 2018 08:52

True the new edition won't be legally enforceable unless / until cited. But it will have been officially endorsed (approval by Minister), and made available. So it can legitimately be called a best practice guideline.
Which is exactly where we are with several other Standards already;including "5033" and "4777.1"- the latest editions have yet to be cited; and the currently-cited versions do not cover (for instance)panel-mounted micro-inverters. Not that such matters are likely to be covered in these seminars, as there's too much change coming in just "3000" to allow the roadshow to cover other Standards as well. But it is a good example of how technology gets ahead, and Standards have to play catch-up.

Same applies to lots of Standards, including those cited by NZ Building Code as "Acceptable Solutions" . You don't have to follow them, but if you do you are deemed to comply with the Code. And if you don't you have to be prepared to show how your solution is at least as good and meets the Code. In fact from 1993 - 2010; that's how "3000" worked as well - as 'deemed to comply'.

Regardless of where and how a Standard is cited, any prosecutions or infringement actions will be for breaching a Regulation or a Section of the Ac; not directly for breaching a clause of Wiring Rules. If there has been injury or property damage, chances are that the charge would be something like "creating a risk of injury/damage by negligently doing PEW contrary to [cited Section/Reg]"; and the prosecution certainly will use every document they can to support the charge.

So Mr Mclaughlin's suggestion of being held to account for not following a yet-to-be cited standard is too far-fetched. Plus of course it's his job to encourage his members to keep fully up to date.
   

mowgli
Feb 07 2018 09:09

The first dozen or so pages in the draft, released for consultation, list all the areas that have been changed. We're told that the final version will look very similar to the draft so that's where I'd look for a heads up on what's changing.
   

pluto
Feb 07 2018 09:26

A point of clarification, all new Standards are approved by a Standards NZ Approvals Board (is part of Standards NZ).

The approval by the Minister was discontinued on the passing of the Standards Act when Standards NZ became part of MBIE.
   

AlecK
Feb 07 2018 11:23

Thanks pluto, hadn't caught up on that detail. However since the main change made by that Act was to remove SNZ's idependent status, and make them part of MBIE, the effect is similar.

Just like advice published by worksafe, if we don't follow it and something gores wrong, we could easily be asked "why didn't you?"

on which; correction to my post this morning: meant to say:
"So Mr Mclaughlin's suggestion of being held to account for not following a yet-to-be cited standard is not too far-fetched"
   

AngryClient
Feb 13 2018 17:48

Who do I talk to about free tickets to attend?
   

BrianW
Feb 13 2018 21:24

One would wonder why anyone would Need to pay the Master Extortionists a fee to attend a 'training' seminar for something that people should be reading for themselves.

As professionals, we should have at the very least, the intelligence to read and understand the rules we operate under, and if we are having to rely on others to interpret those rules for us, then one would have to wonder if we should be in the trade in the first place.
   

WillJ
Feb 13 2018 21:57

Noticed in the electolink, there was a bullet point referring to changes regarding under floor heating and in ceiling heating, is there anywhere i can find more info about this, or do we have to wait till the new standard comes out


   

mowgli
Feb 13 2018 22:21

WillJ try here
http://www.mongroupsydney1.com/AS30002016.pdf
   

pluto
Feb 14 2018 06:22

WillJ Feb 13 2018 21:57
your comment

Noticed in the electolink, there was a bullet point referring to changes regarding under floor heating and in ceiling heating, is there anywhere i can find more info about this, or do we have to wait till the new standard comes out

My comment
There is very little that is new, m,ay be wordsmithing with the main changes being to highlight the use of NZS 6110 which was called in the old AS/NZS 3000 clause 4.10 was a note and is now part of the clause. That is the change being quoted.
   

AlecK
Feb 14 2018 08:21

To be clear; 4.10.1 currently recommends that NZS 6110 be followed for underfloor & ceiling heating cables. The new clause will make following this Standard mandatory.