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Posted By Topic: ohgollygoshgee

RonProffit
Aug 21 2018 17:56

whoops since Ron has decided after 14 years of offering a free service he will shut down or sell this site. I am sure it has been enjoyed and is well used. However immediately it was notified to the many users some feel that rather than encourage someone to pay for it they would use the site to ensure that Ron will not get any reward for the effort that he has put in. Dig the knives out of his back guys, man up and try to be possitive.
   

Tommy
Aug 21 2018 18:02

Could we not all just pay Ron a set fee and Ron continues to run this excellent service
   

BrianW
Aug 21 2018 18:52

Seems the thought of a New \'Free\' forum coming soon hasnt gone down well with Ron but i dont understand why not.

This has been a wonderful forum over the years, with lots of rising electricians learning from the experiences and knowledge of others, but the thought of this dearth of knowledge becoming a commercial enterprise, which will inevitably result in membership fees, and advertising popups, which will inevitably result in fewer people accessing that knowledge, concerns me.

Peoples individual knowledge on this forum is freely given and NOT the property of others, and should not become part of a commercial enterprise, without individual consent, and I certainly Dont give mine.
   

acltd
Aug 21 2018 19:25

Yes a free site very similar to this would be great.
   

DougP
Aug 21 2018 19:33

So Ron,
Would you like to tell the members what you might be prepared to accept for the site?

If for example, there were 100 members prepared to put in $20??

I would certainly contribute that amount to see you reasonably compensated, if it meant that someone could takeover the site \"as-is\" initially, with a view to improvements as time permitted.

That way, at least your legacy could live on.
   

dlink
Aug 21 2018 19:43

agreed, i\'d happy put some coin towards this, maybe a give alittle page to collect it ???
   

SteveH
Aug 21 2018 20:21

\"Peoples individual knowledge on this forum is freely given and NOT the property of others, and should not become part of a commercial enterprise, without individual consent, and I certainly Dont give mine. \"

Actually Brian, by posting anything to this site, or any other, you grant the ownership of that IP to the site owner, and it\'s their choice what happens to it, not yours- if you don\'t like that, don\'t post simple as that.

Thing is, without the content contributed by posters, and those answering questions etc, there would be no site to speak of, and it would have very little value to anyone, be they user, or potential purchaser
   

RonProffit
Aug 21 2018 20:43

OKDoug.
I feel that I would be very happy to recieve $3000.00 for my efforts over the years.
Some data from the sita:
Members 16,515
posts 34,188 as of yesterday
   

evanh
Aug 21 2018 21:14

Steve,
There\'s no way Ron owns what others have said.

The nearest exception to that is when an individual makes a statement on behalf.


   

BrianW
Aug 21 2018 21:18

Actually Steve, attempting to profit off the generosity of those who have contributed too this forum over the years is a gross violation of that generosity, and in my view is despicable, and since it Is my choice to post or not, I choose Not too any longer and will be setting an alternative, free and not for profit forum for those who also choose not too.
   

mazdaman
Aug 21 2018 21:36

I am sure I saw a new thread - I think by BrianW - today saying that a new electical forum name had been registered. However that topic seems to have been deleted - or was I imagining things??
   

acltd
Aug 21 2018 21:54

Yes Ron appears to have removed it. I think BrianW has only just registered the name and still needs to host it somewhere.
You will be looking for a site ending in net.nz instead of co.nz
   

mazdaman
Aug 21 2018 22:17

Hmmm, I think it may have been this page, which is now blank: https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1534824089
https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1534824089
   

SteveH
Aug 21 2018 22:44

You are wrong boys, check TOS of any forum website, owner of website owns any original content posted there, you may not like it, you may disagree, but it is still the case.

As is the case that the forum owner, can remove any content he doesn\'t like, or edit any post.


   

BrianW
Aug 21 2018 22:58

Only if those Terms Of Service are agreed too Steve.


   

BrianW
Aug 21 2018 22:59

and Yes, acltd, you are correct. Keep an eye on google of the coming days.
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 04:22

And even if agreed to, a TOS of service can still be class as onerous and be thrown out in a dispute.

People do seem to get surprisingly righteous over them.

I\'d consider a TOS as a document to let people know the rules that will be upheld. Basically a code of conduct that everyone is expected to follow. Not very binding though. Basically a ban is the worst case punishment.

Certainly wouldn\'t include ownership statements. Ownership would be laid out in some sort of rights agreement in a case by case basis, with default Copyright as the starting point.


https://www.iponz.govt.nz/about-ip/copyright/
   

rarrar
Aug 22 2018 04:22

we\'re all in business, i don\'t begrudge the man about $4 a week for the last 14 years for using his initiative.
i\'ve found this forum extremely valuable, and more than happy to pay some way to continue using it especially being able to search historical questions
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 04:37

I thought the time for donations was over. I\'d be willing to donate too, but I\'d want to see the website stay operating then.


   

daniel2
Aug 22 2018 07:26

I think you guys have already forgotten: there was a website/forum that competed against this one. However very few people joined up and it failed.

Why do you think a new forum would survive?

The reasons for this forum’s success are:

- number one in Google search (anywhere in the world)
- simplicity
- easy to join
- anyone can comment
   

SteveH
Aug 22 2018 07:31

\"Only if those Terms Of Service are agreed too Steve.\"

Posting to the site is agreeing to the TOS Evan, there is no compulsion to post, many don\'t, but what you do is the site owners- check out TOS of Facebook, LinkedIn, whatever site you like.

Brian, be cautious about using Google Groups with your real email address (likewise anyone signing up)you will have the crap spammed out of you.



   

BrianW
Aug 22 2018 07:36

I would\'ve thought that how it would survive is pretty bloody obvious !!

This one WONT be here !

Or have you not Read Rons intention.

If he\'s true to his word then it will be shut down by Friday.

If someone pays him his 3 grand and takes it over, well and good, but anyone doing that will be looking to recoup their costs and it will become commercial, with all the unwanted trimmings, before we know it.

That doesnt sit well with me, so i\'m well down the road of offering an alternative, which will remain FREE, and unencumbered by the need to make a profit.

The other reasons you mentioned are easy to duplicate, and improve on !

If people want it, it will be there, and they will come.

If not then so be it, but at least there will have been an attempt.

Doing nothing achieves exactly that.
   

SteveH
Aug 22 2018 07:40

Copyright is the reason that TOS usually require posters to only post original material, and will state that posters are responsible for any consequences of copyright infringement for items that they post without the permission of the owner.

Seems like there is a bit more interest in keeping this forum going, Ron has posted his asking price, who is interested in forming a Co-Op to buy, and run it (with suitable changes and upgrades)?
   

BrianW
Aug 22 2018 08:24

Actually Steve, you are completely incorrect, and I’m quite happy to point you in the direction of a copyright attorney to enlighten you, however, that said, Terms Of Service can Only be agreed to when they are published for people to read.

Unless I’ve missed something here, which is entirely possible, Where are the Terms Of Service for this forum?
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 12:14

Steve,
What I said rather impressively applies to all those websites too. If their TOS has anything to say about owning the writings of its users, then it\'s meaningless.

Probably the only reason such a declaration of ownership won\'t be considered as breaking the law is because TOS is not a document of law.

   

RonProffit
Aug 22 2018 13:02

Oh darn darn darn.
I do seem to have upset brian. I do have a right to dispose of my property as I see fit and for someone who obviously feels some ownership of this site that maybe a bit sad. The truth is that I saw the need for it. I took the actions necessary to establish it. I have not charged anyone for its use for 14 years and yes when brain decided to use the site to try to deprive me of my rights tosell I did edit out his comments, and if he continues to abuse the priveledge of membership I may even delete his membership.
Seriously the sale f the site would in all probability be the best thing for the site. I have had more than a dozen offers to just take over and run the site but then I would relinquish any control and the new man could easily make the change to whatever in their objectives are. brian if you would prefer your name removed let me know

   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 14:11

Ron,
Okay, so, the offer is $3000 from the community and the community owns the whole site.

If not, you\'ll shut it or sell it to another party.

That sum it up?

   

RonProffit
Aug 22 2018 14:16

That\'s about it with 1 condition is that I want to use the course booking for the next year.
I do have to say that considering some of the comments posted over the last couple of days I am close to just shutting it and walk away, some real grateful types out there
   

AlecK
Aug 22 2018 14:18

Not getting into the TOS vs copyright issue, which is only barely relevant anyway.

But yes the domain name and the website are Ron\'s property; and he is free to dispose of them as he wishes. Not that there will be much value in the site once the domain name rights lapse. Ron has said he wants to keep the name, but hosting after Friday needs to be paid for if the site is to continue.


There\'s clearly a demand for a service like this; so the only question right now is whether anyone prepared to pay the asking price to take over the site as it is.
I won\'t be, as my current circumstances don\'t allow it.

If this site goes down, another will certainly spring up; maybe different format / platform etc but essentially same service of allowing discussion.
Maybe several; in which case users will make their own choices.

At least one industry org has one already (for their members only). Another provides a Q&A service (again for members only), but not a forum (used to, but it didn\'t get used much).

Total posts is almost meaningless (as are some of the individual posts). The history of old posts becomes increasingly irrelevant the older they are. Total users-who-have-ever-logged-on means nothing.
What matters is whether there are enough active users to cover costs, either by donation, by fee, or by attracting advertisers.

Personally I\'m certainly not up for costs of having a new site put together (nor learning how to do it myself); and don\'t have the time to even develop a specification for a developer to follow.

   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 15:12

I gather it\'s on a commercial hosting service by that statement. What is the current hosting financial arrangement?

   

Satobsat
Aug 22 2018 15:13

I think the main question people have is which forum, if others do spring up will Aleck, Pluto, Sarmajor and the other knowledgeable people be on if they choose to sign up to a new forum and how do we find that out?

Is anybody interested in forming a syndicate or signing up for an annual fee to pay for hosting of this site? I think it could be done for less than what Ron is currently paying. I know of a web site guru who has all sorts of connections that the syndicate could pay for any site maintenance or upgrades. He even has a hosting company and runs everything on a shoe string, to keep costs low.
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 15:52

Keeping this site up comes down to the value of maintaining the existing content. It will all vanish if the site itself is not maintained.

Joining up to an alternative if this site goes down will happen in one way or other, but the questions and answers will have to be submitted all over again.


   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 15:56

I\'m not in favour of a membership at this stage.

Asking for donations I\'m good with, but also knowing the target and how much is already covered are desirable figures to post in this situation.


   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 16:03

A guru to help out does sound convenient. I\'d like to support NZ hosted too.


   

Satobsat
Aug 22 2018 16:17

Hi evanh apparently a $1000 a year according to someone I talked to and he thought that was a lot to pay. You can rent server space, there are servers in Christchurch that offer that service.

I also thought that it might pay to have an affiliation with a an electrical trades site like builderscrack, my friend is currently developing such a site and it would give him access to potential electrical tradesman for his site who are also proactive about studying the regulations etc, he would pay a percentage of his profits of course, would help to pay running costs.

But unless enough people are interested it would not be worth pursuing.
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 16:35

You might have to expand the details there for me to comprehend that arrangement.

Regarding hosting costs, I can see lower than $10/mth exist in NZ. Those do have storage limit and data cap. For double the price the data cap usually vanishes and storage raised.

That\'s another question for Ron: How much storage space does the site use currently?

   

DougP
Aug 22 2018 16:55

I would be fairly certain that $1000 price would include things other than hosting, like the site or database maintenance.

You can get hosting in NZ with unlimited bandwidth and unlimited disk space for under $100 per year.
   

BrianW
Aug 22 2018 17:06

I\'m really not sure where this figure of $1000 a year for hosting comes from.

Anyone can get a local host with plenty enough storage and traffic bandwidth, and ALL the required software for this for $149.00 a year and $39.00 per annum domain renewal.

As for integration with Builders Crack. Yeah, Nah, not for me. This site may well have been founded with a particular purpose in mind, but it has morphed into a forum for the free exchange of ideas and information, free of the encumbrances of commercialism and should remain so.

I have not once disputed Rons ownership of the site and domain name. It is his, and he\'s free to do what he wants with it, but I whole heartedly object to the idea that that Freely given and exchanged information is somehow a commodity to be sold for profit, and basically holding the membership of the site to ransom in an attempt to gain that profit is a despicable act in my view.

I would have no problem with this whatsoever if Ron had simply stated that he no longer wished to run it, and was happy to hand it on to someone else within the membership to take on the on going cost, but he didnt, and i object, however meaningless that may be to some.

Ron, if you wish to delete my membership because you object to my beliefs, then be my guest. It makes little difference to my intention to set up a new forum once you turn yours off, but I would say that its possibly a case of you not wanting to hear that many in the group feel more than a little betrayed by your attempt to profit off their backs.

So I guess that\'s me done here, as i suspect Ron will follow through with his threat, so the only thing left for me to say is catch you on a new forum in a few days time.

Seeya.
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 17:21

I\'m seeing $18+GST per year for a domain name.

   

dlink
Aug 22 2018 18:01

I host my eCommerce website with spark for $5 + GST per month which has more than enough storage and bandwidth - which would be way more than this text based site would require also, and domain names are normally about $30 + GST per year.
   

Satobsat
Aug 22 2018 18:02

Brian

\"I\'m really not sure where this figure of $1000 a year for hosting comes from.\"

It came from Ron via someone else and it is what Ron said his yearly expenditure was. He might be hosting this site from his own server.

\"As for integration with Builders Crack. Yeah, Nah, not for me.\"

I never mentioned integrating it with builders crack, I talked about a similar site that was for electricians as a way of funding the site. Just putting ideas out there.

\"This site may well have been founded with a particular purpose in mind, but it has morphed into a forum for the free exchange of ideas and information, free of the encumbrances of commercialism and should remain so.\"

I do agree with you about the lack of commercialism, but using a browser like Brave will stop 98% of ads on your screen from displaying.

Ron was in a way right, you do seem to have a claim of ownership to this site. But unless you purchase it then this is the reality of the situation like it or not, no good whinging about it on here. Go build that other site Brian.



   

dlink
Aug 22 2018 18:13

I\'d Like to see Ron paid for his efforts, he has presented a website that we have all used and enjoyed, some websites have sold for serious amounts, Ron\'s offer of $3k to me appears to be quite an acceptable figure. I\'m prepared to offer to contribute $1K as apart of a community purchase to keep it as is and provide Ron with competency course bookings as per his wishes, and to keep our information seeking community togeather, who\'s with me ?
   

BrianW
Aug 22 2018 18:21

Exercising my right of reply while I still can.

I have no idea just how you’ve drawn the conclusion that somehow I have some sort of claim to this site? That has Never entered my mind, and I certainly never expressed that.

My Only issue here is the attempt at profiting off the free exchange of ideas and knowledge of the membership base.

I get that not all agree with me, and that is absolutely their right, as it also Ron’s right to do as he sees fit with his own property, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it, and voice my opinion of that.

As for the many options of hosting costs.

Well, it doesn’t matter what you buy, you’re Always going to find it cheaper somewhere else the next day.

The point is that it doesn’t cost a lot of money to own a domain have someone host a site, and the quoted figure of $1000 seems a lot for a site as simple as this.
   

BrianW
Aug 22 2018 18:32

A community purchase and ownership model will Never work. Someone has to ‘own’ the domain, I.e. be responsible for paying for it, and as long as someone owns it, the community model is only as good as the goodwill of the owner.

I guess you already know that I will Never contribute to any sort of purchase based on someone profiting off the free exchange of ideas, so I’m definitely not with you on that.

And I certainly won’t be changing my browser just to get rid of unwanted ads on a site that shouldn’t have them in the first place.

Gotta go now. Have to upload a new forum template to my new domain and could be a while.


   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 18:50

I\'m viewing the $3000 as a belated funding donation.

To be honest, I don\'t see the money appearing, I wouldn\'t be putting in more than $50 for my share, and this site will vanish.


   

Tommy
Aug 22 2018 19:06

I am with you dlink more than happy to pay Ron if we could all contribute
Setting up a new site as good as this is crazy and doubt it will work
Am also happy to pay a yearly fee if someone has the time to run this site.
I defiantly want to do your competency course next year Ron if things go sour on this site you have emails from past attendees please email us directly.
The majority of readers really appreciate your forum and competency course
   

Satobsat
Aug 22 2018 19:10

I\'d match your $50 and raise you $50 evanh.


   

AngryClient
Aug 22 2018 19:21

My 2 cents, cos no one asked for it.

This forum works, why it does is because of the mostly unmoderated and simple ease of voicing ones opinion.


Subs - Yeah nah

Ads from the \"endorsed\" supplier or product of the month - there is Linkdin for that

Experts answers like \"head on down to the local and see Ben behind the counter\" - I cant remember the last time I got an accurate legislation based question answered at a whoelsaler. Yuck.

Also sorta agree with Bri Dub:
Establish Forum
Let the community fill it with content
???
Profit?

Oh wait,


   

Kingswell
Aug 22 2018 20:34

I\'ve just put $5o across, Ron. You may consider it a tribute for the past, or a contribution towards the future. No strings attached.
   

bakinthegame
Aug 22 2018 21:39

I think $3K is a very reasonable sum for this website considering the following it’s got & information contained.

Sure it’s not flash but it doesn’t need to be.

I don’t agree a commercial sponsor would need to ‘re-coup’ their minimal $3K investment by pop up ads etc & mass commercialisation including membership fees.
Bollocks.

3K is nothing to a firm like Russells or similar - they can simply have their logo top of page where Rons pic currently is...

I personally will donate $100 if it helps keep this site going - we just need to clarify how this will work - I think we could raise $3k or close with a givealittle page mostly from current membership surely?

But we need a guarantee it will continue to operate...
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 21:52

I\'ve joined you Kingswell, put my $50 in too, same reason.

Had to enable first-party scripting (one known tracker blocked) to make the Paymate card payment page work.


   

BrianW
Aug 22 2018 21:53

Well, you clearly dont get it then, do you !

For me this isnt about what its \'worth\'. Its about attempting to profit off other peoples generosity and in my world that\'s morally reprehensible.

But since Ive made my views abundantly clear a number of times already i will no longer partake in this, or any other conversation on this forum.

I will now focus All my attention on a suitable replacement for when this one disappears, and if it doesnt work then it doesnt work, but at least i will have tried.
   

dbuckley
Aug 22 2018 23:13

I\'ve made the offer to host the site on a free basis for community benefit, its on the table, and so its there if there isn\'t a better offer.

In terms of NZ copyright: the copyright of individual posts are owned by the author, and T&Cs normally assign the site a perpetual, royalty free licence to the post. However, there is also a separate copyright for the collection and arrangement of posts, and that copyright belongs to the site.
   

evanh
Aug 22 2018 23:26

Brian,
You\'re probably right but I had always intended to donate.


   

Albajohn
Aug 23 2018 05:55

I have just donated $100 to this site in the hope that Ron will keep it going in its original relaxed informative format.

I am disappointed in some of the comments made about Ron in this forum after all he has run this forum for a long time when he did not need to and we have all benefited from the vast knowledge of the participants.

I personally have benefited from this knowledge base.

I have known Ron personally since 1979 and have always found him to be sincere, obliging and very honest.
   

bakinthegame
Aug 23 2018 07:10

Personally I’ve never donated because I don’t trust entering my credit card details on this website - doesn’t seem that secure...

$3K for 14 years of keeping this website going hardly seems like a profit Brian...

Good luck with you website, you seem pretty highly strung, I fear running a website may just be the last thing to tip you over the edge...
   

TimoW
Aug 23 2018 08:34

put those short arms into those deep pockets and pay the damn man. how good could this forum be if everyone chipped in. cheapskates.
   

peter
Aug 23 2018 09:02

just made a long thoughtful post . but it dissapeared has the plug been pulled ?
   

peter
Aug 23 2018 09:07

maybe not ,
I will try again.
Thanks Ron for this site , ive been helped on a number of occasions. However you did advertise it as free asking for donations.
It would no doubt have been good for you as business tool , also it would have been a buisiness expence as your phone , van etc.
   

AlecK
Aug 23 2018 09:11

I have no idea how much Ron got in donations over the years,and I\',m NOT asking.
But I\'ll bet it never covered the running costs; so I don\'t think there can be any suggestion of \"profit\" (no pun intended).


As for the idea that posters somehow own their posts, would be nice to think so but that\'s just not how the real world works.
If you put anything in the public domain, you can\'t expect to retain control.
And posting to this forum is no different from submitting a letter to Editor of a newspaper - they choose whether or not to publish, and if they do they as publisher - NOT the writer - hold copyright. And if any of us posted something libelous, it would be Ron as publisher that was prosecuted.

The only thing we can expect is that our posts are not edited so as to change the meaning.

---------------
I\'m not a techie, but have been through the process not long ago; and (now having learned the hard way that cheapest is far from acceptable let alone best) I know there\'s more to website hosting than just capacity & bandwidth. These days there are security issues so you effectively need appropriate SSL certification, which some of the cheaper hosts don\'t provide or charge extra for.
Then there\'s the desirability for the site to be set up for mobile devices as well as PCs - try using this one on a mobile and you\'ll find the posts are nearly unreadable; you\'ll spend all day scrolling in 4 directions.

Google rankings may be important for sites trying to sell stuff, but less so for sites like this - once someone has found it, they\'ll bookmark it.

--------------


   

peter
Aug 23 2018 09:13

continued
the real value in this site for me has bee the thoughtful incisive posts , contributed at no cost to you... , but freely given by the posters.
Unfortunately i think you could have approached the stopping of this forum in a different manner.
Did you first try to sell to wholesalers and fail , or did you suddenly decide to stop by friday.
   

peter
Aug 23 2018 09:20

I do hope either this site can continue in some form , or another will replace it .
I dont mind advertisements , I read the electrolink and find value in articles and even adverts .
Maybe we need \" The Electrolinkforum \"

   

DougP
Aug 23 2018 09:28

No Peter. It will be just one of this site\'s many bugs which caused your post to fail.

I\'m fine with Ron getting some compensation for his site. But unless the site ownership is taken over from him, to be upgraded and moderated, I don\'t see how there can ever be any improvement.

When I spoke to Ron, he indicated that it was time for him to retire from this anyway. He\'s already said that his only condition for the sale, is to continue with the training course bookings for the next year. That seems perfectly reasonable.

It seems that the difficulty we\'re having, is putting together a model, as well as an agreement, for the new ownership and control - as well as the money.

If the ownership and control model was sorted out, I\'m sure the money would follow - including a generous amount from myself. But not to just continue in the current outdated format.

   

Tommy
Aug 23 2018 10:56

What is wrong with the way it is run you ask a question you get many answers
Sounds like a perfect forum to me
I wonder if Ron would of continued running it even though he’s getting a bit older if people weren’t critising it for being a bit outdated
If it’s not broke don’t fix.
It’s just how we can all contribute to get to 3k to keep Ron happy
A cheap price i would think if we all pay in
   

Tommy
Aug 23 2018 11:02

one option would be for Ron to advertise his competency course for next year and the one after for say $250 everyone who wants to remain on this forum to sign up Ron runs lots of coursesmakes deserved good money and he would probably continue to run this if he felt more valued
And we all need to do the damn course
I guess doesn’t work for out of Aucklanders
But a start
   

AlecK
Aug 23 2018 11:40

Won\'t work, Tommy.
Most people vote with their wallets.
Which is why this free forum works, while those that charge mostly don\'t.
Same for courses, if there\'s a cheaper option most will take it.

I\'ve been looking at maybe having a national industry org take the site under its wing, no immediate change other than partial re-branding (putting their name on the front) and probably some ads to cover ongoing costs. But for that to happen they have to be able to justify spending their (scarce) members\' money on something that helps non-members.


   

SteveH
Aug 23 2018 19:21

\"It seems that the difficulty we\'re having, is putting together a model, as well as an agreement, for the new ownership and control - as well as the money.

If the ownership and control model was sorted out, I\'m sure the money would follow - including a generous amount from myself. But not to just continue in the current outdated format.\"

Agree Doug and feel exactly the same way, I\'m over committed with work and a training role that I perform, and don\'t have the time to tweak this site into what it could be, but happy to contribute dosh to keep it running short term (and acquire it\'s ownership from Ron), but some way to fund it\'s ongoing costs needs to be found.

   

DougP
Aug 24 2018 16:34

So... when does the site go *poof*?