Online assistance for electrical trade people in New Zealand and Australia Login  |  Register  |   Forgot Password
Assistance for electrical trade people




Click here to send Ron a pdf document for publication on this Topic

Documents must be less than 200k in pdf format

Posted By Topic: Freestanding range question

Oct 05 2018 18:49

Hi I have just replace a freestanding range for another freestanding range just a quick question about the work done.the old one was hard wired (there is a switch for the range already there) and the new one has just been hard wired in the same way.Should there have been a socket installed as well and should I have been given a coc for the work done as I have had another sparkly come and replace some old wiring (unrelated job) and I got given a coc for the work he did

Thanks for any response

Oct 05 2018 19:14

If it was the replacement of a free standing range with another free standing range then it does not require to be fitted with a plug and socket.

He should have issued you an Electrical Safety Certificate, note this may be a combined ECOC/ESC sheet with just the fields relevant to an ESC filled out.

Oct 06 2018 08:10

any photos of the job? most i do aren\'t suitable to reconnect as they\'re done with flexible steel conduit that\'s past it\'s use by date mechanically

Oct 09 2018 14:06

Hi sorry about the late reply here are some pictures

Oct 09 2018 14:07

And the other picture

Oct 09 2018 19:07

whoever did these needs reporting asap, they\'re a rogue and need stopping in their tracks before someone dies.

Oct 10 2018 08:40

can you please elaborate on what should have been expected to be done when installing.

Oct 10 2018 09:45

I see you mentioned that a \'Sparkly\' did that install.

Strongly suggest that you call a licensed Sparky to come and completely do the job all over.

And call the ERB to inspect it first.

Oct 10 2018 10:27

In that second picture am I seeing exposed single cores of a TPS?

Oct 10 2018 12:07

hard to be sure, but it looks like it\'s just a separate earth taped to the TPS.

Oct 10 2018 17:05

If that\'s been done by a sparky then a complaint to the EWRB needs to be done. Too many cowboys getting away with crap like this!!!

Oct 10 2018 18:03

there is nothing right at all about this, report them or if you\'ve done it yourself get someone in asap to do it right

Oct 10 2018 18:11

ok, hard to tell from these pictures, but obviously there is no cable restraint where the TPS leaves the wall, what else doesnt float your boat ? this looks pretty typical install from these photos.

Oct 10 2018 21:51

So this is what happened I brought the range from Noel lemmings they offered to drop off,install and take the old one away for $169 they organized for the sparky(he is an apprentice that was working alone) to be here when the range got drop off the wiring was disconnected from the old one and hook up to the new one nothing was change or added to it is a 2 phase setup so my guess is the earth is the single green cable that is taped to the TPS I just want to know if this should have been changed to bring this up to standard / best practice or if it is alright the way it is

Oct 10 2018 22:07

report it to noel leemings, this stuff must be stopped, and the ewrb, as a consumer you did the right thing, they need to know there\'s a rogue out there as it\'s not in their interest either.

Oct 11 2018 06:54

Still no one has said what is actually wrong with it.

Oct 11 2018 07:13

photos are too poor to see exactly everything,

Oct 11 2018 08:36

a ESC should have been supplied, and there is no requirement to convert to plug in and socket connection method under this situation, so what is your issue you can see with these photo\'s rarrar ?
all i can see is a very typical install.

Oct 11 2018 11:56

You would have thought he would have at least added some flexible conduit.

Oct 11 2018 19:56

An apprentice can not supply/sign-off an ESC.

Oct 11 2018 21:40

Nothing wrong with an apprentice working alone but it does complicate the certification aspect as only the person connecting can complete the ESC.

Oct 11 2018 21:58

who says an apprentice cannot sign a ESC.
the person who does the connection must be the one who signs the ESC, not their supervisor. if this was the case an apprentice wouldn\'t be able to do anything other than sweep the floor. its up to the supervisor to supply the correct level of supervision. in this instance we dont know what level of supervision the apprentice was receiving nor what units the apprentice has gained. we have to assume that the apprentice was up for the task and has done the correct testing as per their training. providing the ESC is the apprentices issue here, not the company they work for either - which is another interesting part of our rules we live by.

Oct 11 2018 22:16

Thank you all for your input I will ask for my ESC and see how that goes down

Oct 12 2018 15:03

For those of you that think a Trainee can’t issue an ESC this may improve your level of knowledge, especially section 7.
Those of you supervising Trainees should also have read this document.

Oct 12 2018 19:48

Wheres the tilt plate or are there brackets (unseen) to stop the range tilting forward?

Oct 15 2018 17:05

Looks like unprotected single-insulated conductors to me.
For the ESC, it must be signed & dfated by BOTH the person doing the connection, and (if that person was under supervision) the supervisor [ESR 74A(3)(f)&(g)].
Noting that in this case the supervision referred to can only mean supervision of a trainee, because the other sort of person under supervision isn\'t allowed near anything that\'s connecte3d to a supply (like an existing subcircuit) even if it has been isolated.

Oct 16 2018 13:00

All this back and forth and wasted hot air, here’s a solution: install a range socket and lead. Provide a CoC/ESC.

Problem solved!

Oct 16 2018 19:34

Yes fit a plug and socket and add $200 plus to the bill when it is not necessary.

Oct 17 2018 09:30

Yes a socket & plug would be the \"best practice\" option; but it\'s not the minimum acceptable option. If it were me, I\'d have asked whether they wanted the future convenience of a plug & socket connection; \'cos that should always be the customer\'s choice rather than us imposing our ideas on them.

But the OP was asking about the minimum requirement, what \"should\" have been done (ie whether this work complied with the minimum requirements) and what certification should have been provided.

Satobsat\'s first answer was 100% for both questions asked initially.

Since then we\'ve seen pics that indicate that the work was even worse (non-compliant); and so far no indication that an ESC was issued.


Dec 27 2018 18:19

AlecK, curious as to why would you allude to the "plug and socket" method only being best practice? Though the rules are not retrospective, a freestanding range shall be connected to the electrical installation wiring by a socket outlet or an installation coupler (AS/NZS3000 4.7.2). This is not optional. Interested as to why you'd say hard wiring this range is acceptable.

Dec 27 2018 18:53

I presume he meant that 'minimum acceptable' is to replace like-for-like, keeping it hardwired as was acceptable when it was originally installed.

'Best practice' being to update it to current rules.

Dec 28 2018 08:55

ESR 59 (3)((b)

Dec 28 2018 10:08

That still does not satisfy the requirement of 3000 mandating that a freestanding range needs a 'plug & socket'. This is triggered when the range model "ABC" is then replaced with model "XYZ". Different load characteristics then require a COC and form part of a new fixed load with specific rules. There is no mention of installation of a new circuit, only that a freestanding range must have a plug and socket. I would think it a long bow to replace model ABC with an identical model ABC, but changing to a new model (which is the case 99.9% of the time) would surely require the standard to apply from this point. I would have thought the standard would mention something to the effect that this "only applies to new installations" if that is what was meant.

Dec 28 2018 10:11

What is "like-for-like"? Replacing a ceramic hob with an induction hob?

Dec 28 2018 22:05

ESR’s outrank AS/NZS3000:2007 requirements so compliance with the quoted ESR is sufficient
As long as the fixed wiring is in good order there is no issue reusing it.

The stove is an appliance connected to the installation. The wiring is the installation. The installation remains in original condition with a new appliance connected to it.

Dec 29 2018 13:50

See also ESR 113: if it complied when installed, still complies with original rules, and is not electrically unsafe, it can remain in service.

As Sarmajor says, ESRs "outrank" Standards. Which is what ESR 59(3) is telling you, as there are 3 options there and only one of them is to maintain i.a.w. "3000".

And even "3000" allows maintenance without forcing an upgrade of wiring.
Clause 1.9.3: alterations & additions are treated as new work; but repairs (as in replacing an appliance or a fitting) are allowed "using methods that were acceptable when that part of the installation was installed".

There was a time when some networks forced an upgrade to plug-&-socket, and also to mcb instead of fuse, when ranges were changed.
But that was in the days when they were "Supply Authorities"; ie before 1993; and could only be done using their old powers to impose conditions on consumers connected to their networks.

Upgrades imposed by law are extremely rare. The last legally-enforceable mandatory electrical upgrade was the change from "Reyrolle" scraping-earth plugs & connectors to IEC type for caravans, which happened from mid 1980s. And is still happening; as it was done via the WoEF checklist - there are still a few out there that have never had a WoEF in all that time (I last did one about 18 months ago).